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So, the next version of the C256 Foenix was announced about a week ago.

There's a short video that shows the proposed design and goes through the features:

 

And also this longer one (2 and a half hours) where the creator talks at length about her plans, philosophy (design and otherwise) and talks through the various features.

The new one is called the "Gen X", which I at first thought was just yet another use of the notoriously cool letter X, but in the longer video she implies its a reference to Generation X - that is to say, the people who were active in computing in the 8-bit era, and probably most of the target audience for the project (as well as the X16).

Here are some of my initial thoughts on the project.

As a platform for eight bit computing:

  • it has a 65C816 built-in, but also a slot for expansion cards that offer other processors. This will allow people to use their favorite processor.
  • she talks about how she needs to be better at building a community, but the swappable "2nd processor" will probably fracture the potential community into cliques around the different processors
  • it has both Atari style controller ports and NES and SNES ports, all built in.  I think the idea is to make it versatile for game programming, but will all the options just fracture the community further?

As a tool for music creation:

  • The audio setup is plentiful: lots of built-in chips plus two slots for SIDs, and built-in MIDI ports.
  • Not sure how easy it is to route the MIDI data to the chips, to assign MIDI parameters to commands relevant to each sound chip, etc. Not sure if that's in the hardware, or if users are able to route things themselves via programming (read: "will have to write code to handle MIDI input themselves").
  • A fractured community won't matter if someone is using it as a tool for sound creation.  Once I output the chipsounds into my modern DAW for mastering I can export audio, and the fact that no one else has my exact setup won't matter, same as with any other synth I might use.
  • likewise, for music creation, the various swappable processors let you access the robust audio hardware with whatever your favorite flavor of assembly language is.

Misc:

  • The price means it's not just a fun toy to mess around with.  The base system is at least $500 dollars (I assume USD, but I'm not sure, as Stefany is based in Canada), plus $100 or more for each of the additional processor cards. 
  • If she's trying to do a better job of communicating, she hasn't quite mastered that yet. For example, the website still has almost no information about what the Gen X even is; you have the watch the videos to find out.  I know she's doing this all herself, but still, I'd have gotten the website in order before making the announcement.

 

So who's the market?  I feel like it'll be best appreciated by people who exist at the intersection of "enjoy buying expensive music gear" and "enjoy programming in assembly (in order to use that gear)".  Not sure how large a group that is.  

Then again, If I were to get one, my ability to use it for music-making won't depend on the amount of community support it has.  I'm still considering it.

Anyone else have thoughts on it?

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Posted (edited)

I like the idea ... if money were no object, I'd buy one. By "money were no object" I mean both for having enough to buy the hardware and enough to pay for the space to store it and all its friends I'd buy to keep it company.

Edited by Scott Robison

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I must be living under a rock, this is sound chip madness.

I don’t have enough patience to sit through the 2+ hrs but can somebody tell me what ROM set is being used for the base and how the memory map is organized (emulating something?) or is it a free-for-all?

Is there an active dev community or is this the complete opposite of X16 (no SW, all HW)

If it’s a real thing, $500 is not terrible, especially if audio is your bag.

 

 

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One of the original boards, the C256 Feonix U, is still for sale on the site for $200, but that is bare board alone. Plus probably whatever four to eight hours of my time sitting through Youtube talks to work out how to get a case that will fit the thing.

But unless the plan is to keep that in stock as an entry level, by the time I am back in the US and have a permanent home base sorted out, it will likely be sold out.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, EMwhite said:

I must be living under a rock, this is sound chip madness.

I don’t have enough patience to sit through the 2+ hrs but can somebody tell me what ROM set is being used for the base and how the memory map is organized (emulating something?) or is it a free-for-all?

Is there an active dev community or is this the complete opposite of X16 (no SW, all HW)

If it’s a real thing, $500 is not terrible, especially if audio is your bag.

 

 

At least some of that info is in the Wiki

https://wiki.c256foenix.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

There's a memory map and a list of Kernal functions. AFAICT, the Kernal is custom built for the platform.

I have never looked closely at the 65C816 processor, and don't really know the differences to the 6502/65C02 apart from that you have 24 bit addressing, wider/new registers, additional OP codes and so forth.

Edited by Stefan

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

One of the original boards, the C256 Feonix U, is still for sale on the site for $200, but that is bare board alone.

The "U" doesn't have all the sound capabilities, though -  as far as I can tell, the "bare board alone" doesn't have any sound capabilities, and an expansion card is an additional $125.

Actually, it's hard to learn what exactly the U/U+ models do and do not have because

  • the U and U+ pages in the 'shop' tab don't list he features,
  • it's removed entirely from the 'products' tab, and
  • the wiki (which is in sore need of expanding) has very little information as well. 

Again, communication is not her specialty and again, there's not enough of a community to have populated the wiki for her.

 

15 hours ago, EMwhite said:

Is there an active dev community or is this the complete opposite of X16 (no SW, all HW)

Sadly that pretty much sums it up.

 

15 hours ago, EMwhite said:

I don’t have enough patience to sit through the 2+ hrs but can somebody tell me what ROM set is being used for the base and how the memory map is organized (emulating something?) or is it a free-for-all?

I don't think this information is available in the video.  There's some discussion of whether the RAM could be shared between the base 65C816 processor and whatever processor is in the expansion card (I kind of tuned this out, not planning to buy an expansion processor, but I think the answer was 'no' and that each expansion card comes with its own exclusive 4MB.) 

As for ROM, all I know is that it comes with "Foenix BASIC816", and there a link from the wiki to a manual for that flavor of BASIC.  In the long video, someone asks her if there will be any built-in software, like maybe a tracker, and iirc all she says is 'if there is, it would only be for the 65C816' (even though her favorite Processor is apparently the 68000).

EDIT: fixed formatting error.

Edited by John Chow Seymour

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, John Chow Seymour said:

The "U" doesn't have all the sound capabilities, though -  as far as I can tell, the "bare board alone" doesn't have any sound capabilities, and an expansion card is an additional $125.

Actually, it's hard to learn what exactly the U/U+ models do and do not have because

  • the U and U+ pages in the 'shop' tab don't list he features,
  • it's removed entirely from the 'products' tab, and
  • the wiki (which is in sore need of expanding) has very little information as well. 

Again, communication is not her specialty and again, there's not enough of a community to have populated the wiki for her.

However, the U/U+ boards DO have sound capabilities ... the expansion card adds Ethernet 10/100+ and two SID sockets, but the home page of the Wiki says:

Quote

 

All Foenix systems include a WDC 65C816 CPU @ 14.318Mhz and the following base features:

Sound

  • 2x Gideon FPGASID
  • 16-bit stereo CODEC
  • TI SN76489 (Sega, Cabinets)
  • Yamaha OPL3 (Sound Blaster)
  • 3KHz piezo beeper
  •  

What it lacks that the FMX and GenX have is the OPM, OPN, and MIDI in/out.

Evidently, from the shop page, the U/U+ are undergoing redesign to work with an FPGA that will be easier to obtain. Since it is sold as a bare board and the "Hardware Enclosures" page doesn't actually give any information on what type of standard case the FMX will fit into ... and gives zero information about enclosures for the Feonix U ... that'd be another reason for not placing an order, even if I had $220 burning a hole in my pocket right now.

There's a github for the Basic ... it seems to be in an early development state at the moment. https://github.com/pweingar/BASIC816

And in addition to an early days ports of retroforth, there is a port of open forth 816 (of816) which seems in a more workable state: https://github.com/aniou/of816/tree/C256/platforms/C256

Edited by BruceMcF

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Watched a bit more of the 'live' video.  Captured a few things but I'm not (and will not) join Discord so if somebody cares to contradict/correct, please do...

  • case to be aluminum strut with panels not plastic molded so I suppose as a 'kit' it's less expensive to ship and far less expensive to produce than using custom plastics.  Some talk of 3d printed for DIYers.
  • Stefany's approach looks to be, throw everything on board then worry about all of the logic/bus/switching in FPGA.  Interesting approach as it provides some amount of future proofing and the ability to negotiate relative bus speed differences without leveraging tons of DIPs 27* family or requiring a full board re-issue.  Now that I've been thinking about it, I definitely like the emulated (and supplied [example: SID]) approach for many of the sound ICs.  The very nice thing about this is that tons of SW was written to support SID and the others and if the instruction set is a superset of 6502, it will ultimately support a more broad catalog and ease of porting.
  • similar to 'David', she mentions her love of the classic monolithic CPU and wanting to limit custom ASICs or FPGA everything; in the conversation she compares it to Apple with chips that do who-knows-what; also, similar to X16, it's PS/2 only and not bothering w/USB.
  • unlike X16, she is going to include a hard disk and maybe even floppy interface in addition to SD.  Also, unlike X16, she is going to have a serial port onboard.  That will play well with my vintage 9600 baud serial protocol home network. : )
  • I'm not familiar with the CPU but it looks like a superset of the 6502;  One of the collaborators has a few YouTube vids posted and most of the opcodes look familiar.  Also, regarding '+1' CPU, her affection for the 68K may bring some 520ST code sooner than later.  She cited some ST music SW that may be useful to port and her admiration of the early SGI interface as well.  Getting up off the ground in a windowed but primarily text interface is appealing; I remember my days visiting HP (I was doing benchmarking in Palo Alto at the time; early 90s), we had a windowed terminal that was effective and led to a great multi window text based dev environment that allowed copy/paste between text terms.
  • she is not interested in dealing with duty/tax, reselling parts that will only add to the markup, and does not want anybody to try and port Microsoft Windows to the 486/66 variant of the add-on CPU board (LOL to the last bit).

Whether or not either of the projects deliver, I think the biggest difference in approach is that David (here) had a vision, spoke to some people, established relationships (some of which he already had), then took a step back.  THIS website (and I think a Facebook group) is very organized and is leading to a lot of conversation, a community, and software with boundaries that is reinforcing the likelihood of success; all we need is HW.

On the other hand, FOENIX is a 24 x 7, primarily one-person, highly opinionated HW-first effort and much of it is informed by "I'd like it to be able to run this but not that / do this but not necessarily that".  And it's much more ambitious, but due to lack of an organized community, is more likely to stay a science project or not be widely adopted (my opinion of course).  Because I'm fortunate enough to have some amount of disposable income, I'll be signing up to buy both as soon as it's proven to not be vaporware.  If it were kickstarter based, I'd sign up now but the Patreon presence is nowhere, web site a bit of a mess, marketing poor, and considering a planned availability near October, I have a hard time believing just yet.

 

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Note that several versions of the first design and a batch of the FMX have already shipped. The October dates for the U and GenX boards seem likely to be informed by the experience of building and shipping the first two designs.

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The C256 for me is a bit like triple chocolate brownie batter ice cream haha. There's just SOOOO much to it where I think I might like less over more sometimes. Which is why I like the X16 a bit more, though I'm warming up to the C256 (in part because it does exist as real hardware and she's very frequent with updates, at least on the Discord).  Stephanie has now released two versions of this thing to buy in hardware and at a decent price largely by herself. It's a marvel!

Sometimes I get a little frustrated with the X16 team over lack of updates because they have SUCH A GIFT with the exposure the X16 has whereas Stephanie has had to do it the hard way and she's a brilliant engineer but is perhaps in need of a marketer (which kinda sucks I have a distaste for marketing but if people don't know about your product....). I do feel, and I know it's a sensitive subject on the team, but the very sparse updates on the X16 - well I'll put it this way it tends to crush my momentum with my Command Tracker when I haven't heard much in a while. Doesn't need to be a lot, just a minor update. Peri's latest keyboard update being a fine example though that was a month ago. But even something smaller than that would be ok, even if it's delays (like inevitably supply chain issues). Just the feeling of progress. The X16 team seems to prefer a different philosphy and that's ok but caveat is I think it kills the momentum of the ecosystem.

It bums me out whenever David rocks a video and doesn't mention a single sentence about the X16. I know he's on some big limitations due to the flooding (I'm in Texas and yep I get it) but just a quick update at the end would go A LONG WAY.

Thing is, a lot of us I feel are pouring considerable effort and time to build the ecosystem and it can just be frustrating when we don't see don't really see anything from the team side. I write Command Tracker because it's fun, but I don't want to write it for a dead platform. It'd be nice to know the team has the project at heart and the easiest way to do that is to just say something, even if it's small.

Compare that to the C256, which is available today (and of note, has a working music tracker, albeit only for the FM chips I think) - the smaller model isn't even far from David's price point. But she doesn't have the visibility and reach the X16 has. I just don't want the team to waste that.

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Posted (edited)

Reaction when reading that: "More frequent updates? What are you smok... Oh! Discord! So THAT is where all the action is."

Anyone NOT connecting to the C256 project on Discord is going to have the opposite reaction. On YouTube and on the web site, updates are not just infrequent, but also hard to find.

And if there are any systems actually for sale, that is also left as a puzzle mystery on the site. The only system on the first page is the GenX, which is "coming", and only if you are persistent and check out page 2 do you find pre-orders for a U board, " being redesigned" due to some vague FPGA parts issue.

Also, while working hardware may have shipped, no actually working systems have shipped if you have to load software by injecting with a USB debug function. Until/unless you can load and run software from the SD card, it's not really a working system (I say "until/unless" because for all I know you can, it's just that the information on the issue has not yet been updated).

(Edit) One side effect of having seperate main system software authors and hardware designers is that the process of developing the emulator to allow software development to proceed while hardware issues are being sorted doesn't take time away from those same hardware issues being sorted out. So while it is up in the air whether there will be an actually usable system running on the Feonix U in October (assuming it does ship in October), I have no doubt that the CX16 will have a usable system running when it ships.

Edited by BruceMcF
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On 6/13/2021 at 11:15 PM, EMwhite said:
  • I'm not familiar with the CPU but it looks like a superset of the 6502

 

16 bit superset. It still as the same basic registers, but A and XY can be 8 or 16 bit in operation, it can mimic a 65c02 perfectly or run in 16 bit mode (where I think it's best, except for 8 bit string and other data handling, which there isn't a huge amount of). There are some extra addressing modes suitable for C and obviously 24 bit versions of them. There are also a few tricks which allow you to move zero page about and the like. If you can program the 6502 the 65816 is no real stretch.

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12 hours ago, m00dawg said:

Sometimes I get a little frustrated with the X16 team over lack of updates because they have SUCH A GIFT with the exposure the X16 has whereas Stephanie has had to do it the hard way and she's a brilliant engineer but is perhaps in need of a marketer (which kinda sucks I have a distaste for marketing but if people don't know about your product....). I do feel, and I know it's a sensitive subject on the team, but the very sparse updates on the X16 - well I'll put it this way it tends to crush my momentum with my Command Tracker when I haven't heard much in a while. Doesn't need to be a lot, just a minor update.

I always thought it a shame that Stefany and David didn't join forces. Stefany's an awesome engineer ; she's done a huge amount all by herself on the hardware. David is more software, is great at the 'team building' sort of stuff, has a much bigger audience. It's hard going being a one woman hardware machine - and of course there's always the possibility (god forbid) that Stefany could have a mishap or other external events which would probably kill the project. Even if the hardware is open sourced much of it is in her head I suspect.

I recall from "Dream Computer #1" that they talked about it and some retro meet somewhere, but they were too far apart, this being David's mark one design - the cheap $50 design with minimal hardware.

CX16 has moved much closer to Stefany's sort of design in many ways, as more and more has gone on the FPGA, there's the 6502 RAM/ROM and one of the sound chips (?) and a VIA and most else is in the FPGA. Which isn't far from the Foenix design (though I think it may have DMA, not sure without checking).

Too late now, I suspect, to combine forces.

I can see why she's produced a redesign but it's in danger of fragmenting the fairly small community.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, paulscottrobson said:

I always thought it a shame that Stefany and David didn't join forces. Stefany's an awesome engineer ; she's done a huge amount all by herself on the hardware. David is more software, is great at the 'team building' sort of stuff, has a much bigger audience. It's hard going being a one woman hardware machine - and of course there's always the possibility (god forbid) that Stefany could have a mishap or other external events which would probably kill the project. Even if the hardware is open sourced much of it is in her head I suspect.

I recall from "Dream Computer #1" that they talked about it and some retro meet somewhere, but they were too far apart, this being David's mark one design - the cheap $50 design with minimal hardware.

CX16 has moved much closer to Stefany's sort of design in many ways, as more and more has gone on the FPGA, there's the 6502 RAM/ROM and one of the sound chips (?) and a VIA and most else is in the FPGA. Which isn't far from the Foenix design (though I think it may have DMA, not sure without checking).

Too late now, I suspect, to combine forces.

I can see why she's produced a redesign but it's in danger of fragmenting the fairly small community.

It has a bucketload of DMA, since there is a DMA handler for system memory and a DMA handler for video memory ... Video RAM is, AFAICT, static RAM and the way she gets the bandwidth she needs to layout up 32 sprites and four text/tile layers and two bitmap layers on a 14MHz bus is to access 32bits at once with four 1Mx8bit SRAM chips accessed in parallel by the Video FPGA, Vickey.

As a side note, when you are tallying the "non-FPGA" parts of the CX16 system design, you are skipping all of the addressing logic in the CX16p being done with glue logic, and all the system resources handled by the other VIA (assuming your count of a VIA is the mostly free VIA available on the User Port). Also the 8bit, through pin PS microcontroller they added.

I reckon the design that was abandoned before the current 64K memory map was settled on was a lot closer to Stefany's sort of design, it apparently had three or four FPGA's or CPLD's of various sorts. It would have had one FPGA or CPLD grabbing the high byte from the data bus of the 65816, which would have been doing some of the work of Gavin on the Feonix.

However, one similar feature was having the PCM / CODEC at up to 48KHz frequency on FPGA (though in the separate sound FPGA in the Feonix), though of course the Feonix has the System RAM DMA to feed it, and they both also have a "SID like" sound generator ... the Feonix being much closer with an FPGA stereo SID simulator except without the analog filters, in the CX16 with it's "it's kind of SID like if you squint" 16 channel PSG with NEITHER ADSR nor filters.

[However, even with combining FPGA chips in the U (and I would suppose, the GenX), the Video generator and Sound master/generator "custom chips" in the Feonix are still different chips ... so the Video RAM DMA and system RAM DMA are still in different FPGA ... rather than the Video and Sound generator combined into a single "custom chip" in the CX16.]

Stefany's "U" design is also moving toward the CX16 Vera in having an FPGA SD card interface, AFAICT to allow the "U" design to make the Super I/O chip an optional extra.

I would have personally preferred the AY3's and have the Vera chip handle the feeding of data to the AY3's if they couldn't work out glue logic to do it, ditching the PSG, which AFAIU would have been closer to Stefany's original Beatrice FPGA, but alas, and alack, it was not to be.

(Edit) Before I forget, the sound FPGA Beatrice can trigger the sound chips it controls simultaneously, which is a lot stronger assurance of no perceptible lag than "well, there IS a lag but hopefully it's not perceptible.' If you see reference to Gabe, that is the single FPGA that merge the functions of the system master FPGA Gavin and the music master FPGA (mistress?) Beatrice.



 

Edited by BruceMcF
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Posted (edited)

Stefany's design would be of little use to me -- I'm not the target demographic.  Of all those neat features, only the 16 bit processor would appeal to me.

I feel the same way toward the MEGA 65 ("I'm not the target demographic"), although I find it fascinating and really enjoyed reading the development blog.

It is interesting that, perhaps inevitably, the Foenix and the X16 would drift slightly closer to each other.

 

 

Edited by rje

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Not for me either. Too many moving parts.
You only need one versatile sound option. One versatile video option. One versatile game controller option. etc.
Bolting on kitchen sinks will confuse and fragment developers, force users to buy controllers and cards for every scenario.

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15 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

I would have personally preferred the AY3's and have the Vera chip handle the feeding of data to the AY3's if they couldn't work out glue logic to do it

I was also sad to hear AY go. AY can't work on frequencies higher than 2 MHz, and David clearly said they don't want any additional logic between bus and sound chip. No point to discuss this, I just wanted to sympathize and join little club of AY. ) 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Cyber said:

I was also sad to hear AY go. AY can't work on frequencies higher than 2 MHz, and David clearly said they don't want any additional logic between bus and sound chip. No point to discuss this, I just wanted to sympathize and join little club of AY. ) 

Yeah, just lamenting. If the FPGA drives the timing and selection, you only need one demux between the data and address lines to the AY3 data/address bus, since the one not being selected will ignore the data anyway. So there might not have been enough pins to do it like the Beatrice chip and have the FPGA bus master the sound chips (pins is likely why the sound chip and video chip are in still in different FPGA's), but you could still hold the CPU with RDY and just demux the address and data bus values being asserted in sequence with the AY3.

But it's water under the bridge. If people really want some AY3's, they need to slap some in an expansion board and add the circuit to stretch and demux the CPU data and address lines themselves. And without the motherboard design limitations, that can just be in a single CPLD, so it can just have memory mapped registers and buffer the data in the CPLD until the AY3 is ready to receive it.

Edited by BruceMcF

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

If people really want some AY3's, they need to slap some in an expansion board and add the circuit to stretch and demux the CPU data and address lines themselves. [...]

The expansion slots are, I think, a good way to democratize and defer part of the design process.  If people want X badly enough, then Y.

Limits the compromising down to "what's the base framework".  Although I do note that 8BG paid attention to his own episodes, and noted that apps tend to develop off of the base platform for maximum market-- so include the things you WANT, when you design the base model.

 

Edited by rje
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4 minutes ago, rje said:

The expansion slots are, I think, a good way to democratize and defer part of the design process.  If people want X badly enough, then Y.

Limits the compromising down to "what's the base framework".  Although I do note that 8BG paid attention to his own episodes, and noted that apps tend to develop off of the base platform for maximum market-- so include the things you WANT, when you design the base model.

This is perhaps my favorite feature of the X16. Small simple core but options to expand. I think the 8BG is generally right too but there are exceptions. Only musicians (and only a subset) might need a MIDI interface. Most folks won't for just playing games. Excellent feature for an expansion card. Also the nostalgia of what, I guess, we now call FOMO, can be relived in buying a game that requires an expansion card you don't have 🙂 I'm still nearly certain someone is going to come up with a GUS PnP style sound solution on an expansion card. Network I/O also might be more of a subset of folks (for developing or bringing back the BBS experience, etc.).

So all in all, super glad to see it. It's really what got me the most excited about the platform (though the cool banking thing is something I find really fun to work with, but I can't really quantify why).

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27 minutes ago, m00dawg said:

Only musicians (and only a subset) might need a MIDI interface. [...]

And don't forget, 8BG is an electronic keyboard enthusiast.  When I saw his audio requirements, I thought "no surprise".

 

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It would be yep! For me I wanna use it for clock sync to Command Tracker (which also uses Concerto) but yeah making the X16 more of a realtime instrument via Concerto would be really fun as well! I doubt many folks would use it but having the tracker do MIDI out could be interesting as well. Write tunes using YM2151, VeraSound and a SoundCanvas? Why not!

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Let's face it - if the X16 had a MIDI port and a decent host application to present at least General MIDI as well as a custom patch engine, hooking it up to Qbase and doing chiptunes with it would be pretty sweet.

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