Jump to content

Commander X8 Disussion


Mtemal
 Share

Commander X8 Interest POll  

19 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you buy the Commander X8 if it were made available to purchase next month?

    • Yes
      11
    • No
      8

This poll is closed to new votes

  • Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.
  • Poll closed on 10/19/21 at 02:24 AM

Recommended Posts

On 10/15/2021 at 5:44 PM, EMwhite said:

So what else can we talk about that is not this topic and not off-topic?  {crickets}

 

Maybe Frank will find a way to give the X8 1MB of RAM, thereby making it half of an X16! 🙂

Seriously though, that would be nifty. Heck, even if it were only possible to have 128KB of banked RAM on the X8, that would be enough to be useful while also allowing programmers who only have an X8 the ability to learn/use the RAM banking system (which is an integral part of the X16 design).

To answer the unique value proposition question, I think an X8 built as a 100% compatible X16 with less RAM has the following benefits:

  • A low cost device that almost anyone around the world can afford, given disparities in economies, etc.
  • 0 input lag and other issues created by software emulation (no OS to install/manage, for example).
  • Feature rich programming environment and tools that are built into the machine.
  • A nice, unique community to create, learn, and play with.

If they sold a set of PETSCII stickers for a dollar or so, then a person could easily use any USB keyboard without much trouble. Similarly, some kind of cheap case would likely help folks who just want to use the machine as a retro game console.

Anyway, the low price point, compatibility with the X16, and a simple "plug and play" setup, when combined with being The 8 Bit Guy's computer, there is the potential that the userbase would grow from a small number of people with a specific interest into a large group of people who have all manner of interests and capacities. In short, a cheap and easy to use option may lower the barrier to entry to the point where the device and its ecosystem really takes off, just as it did with the C64.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2021 at 9:22 PM, BruceMcF said:

They haven't changed. X16p, "pro", aka "Plenty of chips", is the one you have been calling chiP and diP, X16c is the Cost reduced one, the X16e is the one with the processor core Embedded in the FPGA.

Mostly FPGA first, Mostly FPGA alongside the X16p, and Mostly FPGA after the X16p ... aka X16e, first, alongside and after ... are all quite plausible at this point.

Just "the FPGA" is a bit confusing since all three will have Vera in an FPGA, it's just the X16e will have more stuff in there alongside.

 

Thanks for the clarification. I like Chip & Dip because it’s easy for me to associate the FPGA variant vs the Physical (PRO) model.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2021 at 9:45 PM, Tatwi said:

Maybe Frank will find a way to give the X8 1MB of RAM, thereby making it half of an X16! 🙂

Seriously though, that would be nifty. Heck, even if it were only possible to have 128KB of banked RAM on the X8, that would be enough to be useful while also allowing programmers who only have an X8 the ability to learn/use the RAM banking system (which is an integral part of the X16 design).

To answer the unique value proposition question, I think an X8 built as a 100% compatible X16 with less RAM has the following benefits:

  • A low cost device that almost anyone around the world can afford, given disparities in economies, etc.
  • 0 input lag and other issues created by software emulation (no OS to install/manage, for example).
  • Feature rich programming environment and tools that are built into the machine.
  • A nice, unique community to create, learn, and play with.

If they sold a set of PETSCII stickers for a dollar or so, then a person could easily use any USB keyboard without much trouble. Similarly, some kind of cheap case would likely help folks who just want to use the machine as a retro game console.

Anyway, the low price point, compatibility with the X16, and a simple "plug and play" setup, when combined with being The 8 Bit Guy's computer, there is the potential that the userbase would grow from a small number of people with a specific interest into a large group of people who have all manner of interests and capacities. In short, a cheap and easy to use option may lower the barrier to entry to the point where the device and its ecosystem really takes off, just as it did with the C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2021 at 10:45 PM, Tatwi said:

If they sold a set of PETSCII stickers for a dollar or so, then a person could easily use any USB keyboard without much trouble. Similarly, some kind of cheap case would likely help folks who just want to use the machine as a retro game console.

There is a guy on eBay selling PET keycap stickers for $79.  How does that sit with a community that doesn't want to spend more than $49 for a full blown computer.  (don't answer). Case wise, yes; but unless somebody gets hopping with a 3D printer, anything does not fit in a standard size is a non-starter.  Christian's (Peri) work was so nice and the spiral bound manuals, designer pantone matched pencils and boondoggle keychains will be missed. 

I believe here is 'an' answer out there somewhere but 1/3rd of the people want what I want and 1/3rd want everything for nothing; it's the middle 3rd that is tough and risky.  That's the problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ Tatwi

”Anyway, the low price point, compatibility with the X16, and a simple "plug and play" setup, when combined with being The 8 Bit Guy's computer, there is the potential that the userbase would grow from a small number of people with a specific interest into a large group of people who have all manner of interests and capacities.”

 

I think it’s dangerous for the project to pursue price out the gate. The X16 community and dedication to building a new non compatible platform is what makes it special. If the pursuit was cost differentiation then the team would have reduced the X8/X18 FPGA to just be a “compatible” 6502 project like the MiSTer. Instead what we have seen is a dedication to the platform and it’s unique quirks. The development on the X16 emulator alone is one hell of a thing to take note of. 


 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2021 at 11:02 PM, EMwhite said:

There is a guy on eBay selling PET keycap stickers for $79.  How does that sit with a community that doesn't want to spend more than $49 for a full blown computer.  (don't answer). Case wise, yes; but unless somebody gets hopping with a 3D printer, anything does not fit in a standard size is a non-starter.  Christian's (Peri) work was so nice and the spiral bound manuals, designer pantone matched pencils and boondoggle keychains will be missed. 

I believe here is 'an' answer out there somewhere but 1/3rd of the people want what I want and 1/3rd want everything for nothing; it's the middle 3rd that is tough and risky.  That's the problem.

I can buy 8x11" sheets of plastic sticker paper for use in our laserjet for less than 30 cents each. That guy... wow!

On 10/15/2021 at 11:07 PM, Mtemal said:

I think it’s dangerous for the project to pursue price out the gate. The X16 community and dedication to building a new non compatible platform is what makes it special. If the pursuit was cost differentiation then the team would have reduced the X8/X18 FPGA to just be a “compatible” 6502 project like the MiSTer. Instead what we have seen is a dedication to the platform and it’s unique quirks. The development on the X16 emulator alone is one hell of a thing to take note of. 

No need to circle the wagons. We're on the same team here.

For a project like this to reach critical mass, where the userbase is sufficiently large as to make it worthwhile for developers to create software for the platform, the "big picture" must be considered along with the wants of a minority of extremely enthusiastic specialists. Unfortunately, the community on this forum appears to be comprised mainly of people who, due to their very specific desires and their fear of not getting what they want, lack the objectivity that is required to see the big picture. I will do my best paint the image, but if you still can't see it afterwards. I am not going to arguing with you.

The public facing project on the whole is comprised of:

  1. David's fame.
  2. David's goals of creating a modern 8 bit computer that is easy enough for one person to understand, while being inexpensive/accessible to anyone (note his non-profit statement in the first dream computer video).
  3. A platform that has the capacity to host really fun games.
  4. A platform that comes with all the tool required to create said games using the platform itself, including excellent documentation.
  5. Hardware that has a nostalgic look and feel, while also having its own identity that resonates with David's audience.
  6. A reliable, responsive hardware platform that is "instant on" and as easy to use as the Commodore machines.
  7. A hardware platform that has lots of potential for modification.

Points 1 through 6 are the aspects of this project that are the most import to reaching the critical mass of users and developers and all of them are also 100% able to be brought to life using the small board FPGA-only design. Furthermore, this design is the least expensive manner in which the hardware can be manufactured (and physically shipped). As such, it objectively makes the most sense to launch a 100% compatible FPGA-only X16 before launching the much more complex and costly "chips and dip" version.

To the vast majority of people, the Commander X16 is nothing more than a toy. No one needs one for anything, yet plenty of people would be happy to pay a reasonable sum for some fun. See the sales volume of the Gameboy (118 million) vs. the XBox One (51 million). Given that profit isn't a consideration with this project, the popularity of the platform itself is the primary measure of its success.

Selling affordable FPGA-only X16s first would put real live X16s into the homes of real live X16 users, from curious everyday folks right on up to hard core hackers. This momentum would build upon itself as more games become available and more learners become developers. That same momentum will cause even more people to buy the full sized X16 when it becomes available, which in turn will increase the platform's popularity as the community sees the successes of the hardware tinkerers. Success builds upon success and that's great for everyone!

This is the objective reality.

I know many of you here are emotionally invested in the full sized hardware and that's completely OK, your reasons are your own. However, I implore you to take a step back and consider how your protectionism towards your own personal desires harms the success of the project as a whole, because what its of the utmost importance to you is in fact only a small portion of the project as a whole.

Take from this what you will, but please know that I don't have a horse in this race; I don't much care either way if the X16 becomes a viable long term successful platform. However, many of you folks with clouded objectivity do care, deeply. I sincerely hope that I have helped you see more clearly the path towards the overall success of the Commander X16 platform, a path that will help you get exactly what you want.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/16/2021 at 2:02 PM, EMwhite said:

There is a guy on eBay selling PET keycap stickers for $79.  How does that sit with a community that doesn't want to spend more than $49 for a full blown computer.  (don't answer). Case wise, yes; but unless somebody gets hopping with a 3D printer, anything does not fit in a standard size is a non-starter.

I did have a point, I started off with one 15 minutes ago, or more. You see I saw a video about keyboards, actually I saw a channel about keyboards a few days ago, but I can't find the videos, or the history breadcrumb trail, or anything really. Then searching for it I found too much else.

The video, I don't know which video it was or from where it came showed not just 3D printed keys from a 3D printed keyboard but it had keys 3D printed which had 3 small magnets in each key to give the tactile feedback function, which was adjustable. In fact there were small demo keypads you could print out with about 16 to 20 keys which had the travel in mm printed on each one, and another with the force required on each one so you could choose the best keyboard to print to suit yourself best.

I cannot find any trace of this keyboard video, or the keyboard in question or anything. I do not know where it is, however I know some interesting places which can be ruled out. There is clackeys, who has nice keyboards but not a good website, it looks like he sells one thing but he sells many on hard to find pages.

GMK-Electric-Keycaps-Artemis-Paragon-Mechanical-Keyboard-Vala-Supply-Original-1-3840x2160_1920x1080.jpg.12ada3604b083f823aa4c4d775b73f72.jpg

anyhow his site I found somewhere else described his site better and that site also has that awesome vending machine I'd rather see in waiting rooms and transport hubs because what is better for your health really, a soda full of chemicals or this vending machine because in the end you are only contributing to your bad health because of boredom, so isn't this one better ?

So you see I had a point which I can't find just yet and maybe someone knows the 3d printed keys with magnets in them project, and has a link ? it's hard to find, the site I came across stopped me for a while, I was accosted by these singing pumpkins from the matrix which is exactly the sort of thing the project I am working on can do with the massive input output capabilities which unfortunately is not the topic of keypads.

So you see I'm having a problem finding my on-topic point right now. I have a point, its on topic, but I got jacked on the way to finding it and I saw it just a few days ago. hmph.

 

On 10/16/2021 at 5:33 PM, Tatwi said:

I can buy 8x11" sheets of plastic sticker paper for use in our laserjet for less than 30 cents each. That guy... wow!

I was thinking some kind of permanent marker, after you draw on all the keys you want, you still have the useful pen for other tasks. savings.

HA ! AHHHH !!! on topic, phew, I'm back on topic. I'm relieved. very relieved.

but I do want to watch those singing pumpkins again.

I need to.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2021 at 10:45 PM, Tatwi said:

Maybe Frank will find a way to give the X8 1MB of RAM, thereby making it half of an X16! 🙂

If the next step up in that FPGA family has enough Block RAM to provide the 40KB in Low RAM as well as the PCM buffer and rowbuffers, I could see an X8 style system on the X16 memory map, with 4 High RAM pages, 2 "ROM" blocks and 64K Video RAM in the 1Mbit SPRAM, without the additional BOM & build cost of an external RAM. If the Vera FPGA could support a 65C02 core, perhaps the next step up could support a 6522 VIA core to support standard User Port.

All, mind, uninformed speculation (which from the abundant amount of it available throughout the internet is surely the most fun kind to engage in!).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/16/2021 at 7:41 AM, Oldrooster said:

I cannot find any trace of this keyboard video, or the keyboard in question or anything. I do not know where it is

Here it be: https://vala.supply/products/gmk-electric

Luckily for everybody here, I have an expert background in store, fwd, search & retrieval.  If you don't know how I did it, ask me about "that one trick that single mothers use to whiten teeth" and I'll show you 52 vintage photos that will make you hungry for solar panels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/16/2021 at 10:50 AM, BruceMcF said:

If the next step up in that FPGA family has enough Block RAM to provide the 40KB in Low RAM as well as the PCM buffer and rowbuffers, I could see an X8 style system on the X16 memory map, with 4 High RAM pages, 2 "ROM" blocks and 64K Video RAM in the 1Mbit SPRAM, without the additional BOM & build cost of an external RAM. If the Vera FPGA could support a 65C02 core, perhaps the next step up could support a 6522 VIA core to support standard User Port.

All, mind, uninformed speculation (which from the abundant amount of it available throughout the internet is surely the most fun kind to engage in!).

I’ve been looking into the Lattice FPGA’s and I think the best step is an 8K type. I think the ICE40HX8K-CB132 is probably a good candidate that will have enough room for a full X-16 FPGA. I dunno if It’s going to require an external RAM chip to handle the X16 banking. I found an introductory course on FPGA’s to familiarize my self with this tech:

http://www.ee.ic.ac.uk/pcheung/teaching/ee2_digital/
 

 

Edited by Mtemal
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/16/2021 at 2:10 PM, Mtemal said:

I’ve been looking into the Lattice FPGA’s and I think the best step is an 8K type. I think the ICE40HX8K-CB132 is probably a good candidate that will have enough room for a full X-16 FPGA. I dunno if It’s going to require an external RAM chip to handle the X16 banking. I found an introductory course on FPGA’s to familiarize my self with this tech:

http://www.ee.ic.ac.uk/pcheung/teaching/ee2_digital/
 

 

The iCE40HX8K-CB132 is a tough sell for a couple of reasons:

  1. It's a BGA package which is a bit more fiddly for non-machine placed parts and cannot be soldered without a reflow oven.
  2. It requires 4 PCB layers with 3.35 mil traces to access all IOs.
  3. It lacks the 1Mb SRAM in the iCE40UP line (this is why the X8 has 64K main memory + 64K VRAM, it's using the SRAM for both)
  4. With only 128Kb of block RAM, it would require external SRAM no matter what
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2021 at 10:45 PM, Tatwi said:

Maybe Frank will find a way to give the X8 1MB of RAM, thereby making it half of an X16! 🙂

If you have an "X8" on an FPGA capable of accessing a separate 1MB of RAM ... why not just make it fully compatible with the X16p and have the originally described X16e (that is, the envisioned mostly FPGA, compatible with the X16p version of the X16)? After all, by that point you've pushed the price point into the $50-$100 range, so you've given up the price point that made the X8 intriguing in the first place.

 

On 10/18/2021 at 12:59 PM, Wavicle said:

The iCE40HX8K-CB132 is a tough sell for a couple of reasons:

  1. It's a BGA package which is a bit more fiddly for non-machine placed parts and cannot be soldered without a reflow oven.
  2. It requires 4 PCB layers with 3.35 mil traces to access all IOs.
  3. It lacks the 1Mb SRAM in the iCE40UP line (this is why the X8 has 64K main memory + 64K VRAM, it's using the SRAM for both)
  4. With only 128Kb of block RAM, it would require external SRAM no matter what

[3] Would seem like the killer issue ... the 1Mbit SPRAM accessed as 128KB of "Video Information" RAM seems to be how Vera can run a 50MHz dot clock for the VGA display and process as many layers and sprites as it does. Once you are adding an external SRAM, the question is, how fast will it have to be? Or will (like the Feonix256) you access multiple 8bit SRAM in parallel ... at which point the parts and build cost of that extra SRAM raises the question ...
... why not leave Vera be and program ANOTHER iCE40UP for the 65C02, OPM & I/O on the X16 memory map, with 40K Low RAM, 2 16K ShadowROM "ROM Banks", and 7 High RAM segments.

Edited by BruceMcF
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/18/2021 at 3:27 PM, BruceMcF said:

If you have an "X8" on an FPGA capable of accessing a separate 1MB of RAM ... why not just make it fully compatible with the X16p and have the originally described X16e (that is, the envisioned mostly FPGA, compatible with the X16p version of the X16)? After all, by that point you've pushed the price point into the $50-$100 range, so you've given up the price point that made the X8 intriguing in the first place.

Alrighty, I think I will back out of the X8 discussion, as it's clear that I understand neither the jargon nor the details of the device. I appreciate your efforts though!

I just want to use the $50 8 bit computer David talked about nearly 3 years ago.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/18/2021 at 5:53 PM, Tatwi said:

Alrighty, I think I will back out of the X8 discussion, as it's clear that I understand neither the jargon nor the details of the device. I appreciate your efforts though!

I just want to use the $50 8 bit computer David talked about nearly 3 years ago.

Yeah, the $50 8bit computer he talked about nearly 3 years ago was multiple contradictory computers, which is how where the "X16p", "as many ASIC DIP chips as workable" version and the "X16e", "replace as many chips with an FPGA as possible" version came from. The first would be 3 figures, not two figures, the second could be two figures, but actually likely somewhere $50-$100 rather than under $50.

The X8 in the now-locked "Megathread" "stole" 64K from Vera Video to work as system RAM, and seems like it had a simpler-for-FPGA way to load Vera RAM to free up the adders that the auto-increment data port use, so that the 65C02 core could use them instead. It was a really "neat" design, but with a number of incompatibilities with the X16 at the assembly language level.

Edited by BruceMcF
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@EMwhite I’m not sure if imaginary is the right term. The prototypes exist. The PCB and FPGA files that are available should allow someone to build their own X8 if they have the parts in the BOM. I would be surprised if there isn’t someone running the “X8” on another FPGA solution considering that the Verilog files are in the FPGA folder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/18/2021 at 11:59 AM, Wavicle said:

The iCE40HX8K-CB132 is a tough sell for a couple of reasons:

  1. It's a BGA package which is a bit more fiddly for non-machine placed parts and cannot be soldered without a reflow oven.
  2. It requires 4 PCB layers with 3.35 mil traces to access all IOs.
  3. It lacks the 1Mb SRAM in the iCE40UP line (this is why the X8 has 64K main memory + 64K VRAM, it's using the SRAM for both)
  4. With only 128Kb of block RAM, it would require external SRAM no matter what

@Wavicle thank you for clarifying that. I was hoping for a clever way to use a BGA package without having to increase the complexity of the PCB layer. I think the external SRAM would be needed if the decided to try and pursue a single ICE40UP solution but with a dual ICE40UP it should be possible without an SRAM. The problem comes down to cost. Prior to the chip shortage the ICE40UP was less than $7.00 a chip, I wonder how high the markup will be when the chips slowly start being available again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/17/2021 at 3:29 AM, EMwhite said:

Here it be[...]

no no, not that one, that was the one I got side-tracked to. The one I was searching for has little 3D printed keys, and the keys I don't think they have internal springs at all, they have tiny magnets in them, so when you press a key on the 3D printed keyboard, two magnets disconnect from each other, giving the tactile feel you are after, then when it descends there is another magnet that repels the moving part after you have lifted your finger off. That returns the key to the original position.

No it's not off topic really, the X8/16 will of course need a look and image, the keyboard is part of it, and with low volume 3D printing takes to the fore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/18/2021 at 9:12 PM, Mtemal said:

@Wavicle thank you for clarifying that. I was hoping for a clever way to use a BGA package without having to increase the complexity of the PCB layer. I think the external SRAM would be needed if the decided to try and pursue a single ICE40UP solution but with a dual ICE40UP it should be possible without an SRAM. The problem comes down to cost. Prior to the chip shortage the ICE40UP was less than $7.00 a chip, I wonder how high the markup will be when the chips slowly start being available again.

If you're concerned about gouging, suppliers like Mouser will allow you to place a preorder at the normal price. You will have to wait until they get their next reel (currently 11 months out) but you can buy 100 of them for $5/unit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/17/2021 at 8:10 AM, Mtemal said:

I think the ICE40HX8K-CB132 is probably a good candidate that will have enough room for a full X-16 FPGA. I dunno if It’s going to require an external RAM chip to handle the X16 banking.

From the number of logic elements, it's about comparable roughly to an 80's cpu afaik, but it runs at a whopping GHz. It is difficult to solder at home onto a board which is difficult to make at home. The price however, WOW that's cheap as chips ! With prices like that I would think to look at FPGAs for other projects...

You need RAM. nothing that size can do decent video.

On 10/19/2021 at 3:59 AM, Wavicle said:

The iCE40HX8K-CB132 is a tough sell for a couple of reasons:

  1. It's a BGA package which is a bit more fiddly for non-machine placed parts and cannot be soldered without a reflow oven.
  2. It requires 4 PCB layers with 3.35 mil traces to access all IOs.
  3. It lacks the 1Mb SRAM in the iCE40UP line (this is why the X8 has 64K main memory + 64K VRAM, it's using the SRAM for both)
  4. With only 128Kb of block RAM, it would require external SRAM no matter what

yes yes huh and yes. I agree with this.

 

On 10/19/2021 at 6:27 AM, BruceMcF said:

If you have an "X8" on an FPGA capable of accessing a separate 1MB of RAM ... why not just make it fully compatible with the X16p and have the originally described X16e [...]After all, by that point you've pushed the price point into the $50-$100 range, so you've given up the price point that made the X8 intriguing in the first place.

I personally think that having an onboard bus for ram is a good option, because once you have the hardware available to access one Sram or Rom in DIP, that's the end of memory entirely, you no longer need to budget for larger memory so long as there is the Address and data bus exposed so that people can add their own. The project that shall not be named takes such an approach, because people will measure by the base model with un-expanded memory knowing full well that adding memory is a job a cat can do. (so long as a dog makes a tutorial video). PLUS there is the added benefit that you can try before you buy, or at least not get in as deeply as purchasing a fully expanded version.

On 10/19/2021 at 3:07 PM, Mtemal said:

@EMwhite I’m not sure if imaginary is the right term. The prototypes exist. The PCB and FPGA files that are available should allow someone to build their own X8 if they have the parts in the BOM. I would be surprised if there isn’t someone running the “X8” on another FPGA solution considering that the Verilog files are in the FPGA folder.

It's the investment barrier. You have to invest in learning all about FPGA and verilog and dip your toes in the YIKES! and then learn the actual programming to write your software, so is a scary, although perfectly do-able, option.

Plus, once you have made the investment you're giddy with new knowledge and spaced out with imagination thinking of all the possibilities of what you can do with that new found knowledge and exploring beyond the X(men) projects.

On 10/19/2021 at 3:12 PM, Mtemal said:

@Wavicle  I was hoping for a clever way to use a BGA package without having to increase the complexity of the PCB layer. 

there are some clever solutions, but many people won't try them at home, they'd figure it too fiddly.

 

Edited by Oldrooster
changed "expanded" to "un-expanded"
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/17/2021 at 8:10 AM, Mtemal said:

  the ICE40HX8K-CB132  

Decoding the datasheets (they don't make datasheets like they used to) it has a 132 Ball pins on the IC. The pitch of (spacing between) the pins is half a millimeter.  Regular DIP chips that people love to solder are spaced 2.54 mm apart. Thing is, it's a square array, so the next row is half a millimeter away. There are solutions, but they are fiddly enough to stop 98 % people doing anything with it.

617821681_icevariantof132BGA.png.2a2a3cd6737c0e3d0373c2a9a418e95d.png

but not all bad news, there are big gaps in the ICE variant, so a designer could hack this at home, but it's beyond most hobbyists.

Edited by Oldrooster
added return for layout
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Please review our Terms of Use