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WASD Keyboard


jtk
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I do not agree ... there are a lot of Cherry keyboards available that cost either a lot less (starting with 49€) or are feature loaded under the roof (e.g. RGB lighting based on game situation and such). Not that I am looking for the later, but as I said - simply having Cherry mx on it does not justify the price, esp as the num block is not needed and it is only a 87 key keyboard. It will never get as cheap as 10$, that is okay and I would potentially even consider a 100$ ... but 200? nope not at all. I then would prefer to remove the caps from the cheap keyboard and put on any Cherry MX 87 keys keyboard.

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10 minutes ago, SerErris said:

I do not agree ... there are a lot of Cherry keyboards available that cost either a lot less (starting with 49€) or are feature loaded under the roof (e.g. RGB lighting based on game situation and such). Not that I am looking for the later, but as I said - simply having Cherry mx on it does not justify the price, esp as the num block is not needed and it is only a 87 key keyboard. It will never get as cheap as 10$, that is okay and I would potentially even consider a 100$ ... but 200? nope not at all. I then would prefer to remove the caps from the cheap keyboard and put on any Cherry MX 87 keys keyboard.

You have a source for custom mask printed cherry keyboards for 50 euros? You are going to have to drtop a link.

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"Cherry MX Blue Equivalent Switches"...
But the TKL one does indeed look quite nice.

Still, compared to what else is out there, for a custom printed Cherry MX keyboard that is not mass manufactured (I believe they build it especially for each order, right?) $200 (roughly 170€) is not too much.
Of course, you're free to disagree.

Edited by Fnord42
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2 hours ago, SerErris said:

I did not say custom printed ... I said Cherry MX switches Keyboard.

If it's not custom printed, how is it a like to like comparison? Saying that a custom printed, deluxe mechanical keyboard is three to four times more expensive than a mass produced mechanical keyboard is as surprising as saying that a Mercedes Benz Class B RV is three to four times the price of a Mercedes Benz passenger van.

As in, entirely unsurprising.

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39 minutes ago, SerErris said:

I never said custom printed ... I say custom printed caps is not worth 150$.

Oh, you mean ", to me" but left that part out? Making it sound as if you were making an objective claim about personal preference?

Yeah, I leave key words out sometimes myself.

It is, of course, worth it to those who value it that highly.

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8 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

It is, of course, worth it to those who value it that highly.

That would be me.  First, I love mechanical keyboards. Second, anything I can do that helps fund this project, even by a few dollars, is a worthwhile expenditure on my part.

I'll be surprised if David and the rest of the team ever generate enough revenue off of this to compensate for the hours they've put into it. It's in the "labor of love" category, so if I can send a few bucks to help make that happen, it's money well spent, to me.

And I have a cool keyboard I can use on my day-to-day computer, should I so choose!

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  • Super Administrators
kickstarter-2020-august.png.68602f03cb0621b70c8dacb21ab78866.png
Just a small clarification: When David mentions a Kickstarter he's using the word in the generic sense, meaning "crowdfunding". We're not yet decided what the home will be for the campaign. It may well be done within this website. Kickstarter is great for unknowns but The 8-Bit Guy brand carries some value and trust already that may make that unnecessary and help keep the end user price lower without Kickstarter's fees. More info when we have it!
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8 hours ago, Perifractic said:
On 9/8/2020 at 6:55 PM, StephenHorn said:
kickstarter-2020-august.png.68602f03cb0621b70c8dacb21ab78866.png

Just a small clarification: When David mentions a Kickstarter he's using the word in the generic sense, meaning "crowdfunding". We're not yet decided what the home will be for the campaign. It may well be done within this website. Kickstarter is great for unknowns but The 8-Bit Guy brand carries some value and trust already that may make that unnecessary and help keep the end user price lower without Kickstarter's fees. More info when we have it!

I have backed many Kickstarter projects, but that said I really fail too see any services or advantages that Kickstarter brings to the table, except being a website/e-commerce-platform. They never guarantee anything anyway (in difference to Amazon and eBay, which gives you refund and protection as a buyer).

So for me personally I do not get any value from being on Kickstarter compared to any other webpage/ecommerce solution. 

If you kan provide your own solution for handling credit cards and backing orders, I say do it your self (and keep the KS service fees you save to the projects funding and gain).

Edited by martinot
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8 hours ago, Perifractic said:

Just a small clarification: When David mentions a Kickstarter he's using the word in the generic sense, meaning "crowdfunding". We're not yet decided what the home will be for the campaign. It may well be done within this website. Kickstarter is great for unknowns but The 8-Bit Guy brand carries some value and trust already that may make that unnecessary and help keep the end user price lower without Kickstarter's fees. More info when we have it!

Processing it yourself via the website is a great way to maintain greater control, as well as save money. The team has already been incredibly transparent about what's going on, providing significantly more information than any crowdfunding campaign I've ever seen.

You have but to say the word and I'll be signing up, regardless of the platform the team chooses.

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While I agree that Kickstarter will probably bring in some more people, I must say that most of the Kickstarter projects that I backed, I heard about outside of Kickstarter first.

Also, keep in mind that the team has some rather popular youtube channels, and Hackaday and other media will quite probably cover the campaign, too.
So I don't expect that it will be a problem to find enough interested people for the first batch of Commander X16s.
If interest is lower than expected, Kickstarter might still be an option, but I have no idea if the gained audience would be worth the Kickstarter fees.

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14 hours ago, Fnord42 said:

While I agree that Kickstarter will probably bring in some more people, I must say that most of the Kickstarter projects that I backed, I heard about outside of Kickstarter first.

Also, keep in mind that the team has some rather popular youtube channels, and Hackaday and other media will quite probably cover the campaign, too.
So I don't expect that it will be a problem to find enough interested people for the first batch of Commander X16s.
If interest is lower than expected, Kickstarter might still be an option, but I have no idea if the gained audience would be worth the Kickstarter fees.

Indeed, as far as getting the "big bang" that is key to getting visibility VIA Kickstarter, doing a CX16p/CX16c round in house and a CX16e round on Kickstarter would be an option to consider ... certainly the Kickstarter promo video with the CX16c in its case running a game and giving its price and then holding up the prototype CX16e "What we need your help for is to shrink it down to this". The latent demand of people waiting CX16e's using it as a pre-order would give the fast first day numbers that attract the attention of people browsing Kicksrter for cool things to share.

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An update on the WASD keyboard:  I love it, and I didn't expect to.

 

For 17 years I've loved my Topre-switched "Happy Hacker II" keyboard... and I still love its layout.

But then I bought the WASD this year, and used it as my primary keyboard, WFH and home use.  The Happy Hacker II is my backup, plugged into the same computer, under the auxiliary monitor.

It took maybe a month to get used to the feel, and now I prefer it.  Now, the Topre keys feel mushy, whereas before I didn't notice.  I increasingly prefer the crisp precision of the mechanical switches now.  I am officially spoiled.

 

 

Quote

When David mentions a Kickstarter he's using the word in the generic sense, meaning "crowdfunding". 

I think that's a good thing -- Kickstarter is okay, but if you don't need it, then don't use it.

 

 

Edited by rje
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  • 1 month later...

I noticed that some of the keys on the WASD keyboard don't work in the emulator. For example "40/80 DISPLAY" or "RUN/STOP".

I assume this is a shortcoming of the emulator and they will work on the real X16, right?
When we have a RUN/STOP key, will ESC continue to work as a substitute for RUN/STOP? What about Ctrl-C? And F4 vs 40/80 DISPLAY?
(I'm not really sure what I would prefer, but maybe it's already decided - I'm curious.)

Also, I seem to remember that someone said that the RESTORE key will not be used, is that correct?

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The keys will 100% work on the real machine. I'll let Michael answer about the emulator.

If you're using a 3rd party keyboard at that time for some reason, whatever key on your keyboard is in the position that our keys like RUN/STOP are in, will perform that function.

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On 10/12/2020 at 7:59 AM, Fnord42 said:

will ESC continue to work as a substitute for RUN/STOP?

I really hope not. ESC is not the "break" function on any other computer system I'm aware of, and the ESC key does serve a critical UI function (close dialogs or go back to a higher level menu). 

On 10/12/2020 at 7:59 AM, Fnord42 said:

I seem to remember that someone said that the RESTORE key will not be used, is that correct?

RESTORE on the Commodore VIC-20 and 64 worked because it was wired to the NMI pin on the CPU. So it has the ability to bypass the keyboard input subroutine and can trigger a warm boot (or perform any other function) even if the computer is crashed - so long as the NMI handler is not trashed. This is impossible with the PS/2 keyboard, because none of the keys is directly wired to a pin like that. So last I saw, the CX16 prototype was fitted with an NMI button, but it would be on the front panel of the computer, not the keyboard.

On 10/12/2020 at 7:59 AM, Fnord42 said:

What about Ctrl-C? And F4 vs 40/80 DISPLAY?

Bear in mind that I'm just an observer, but I expect that as the KERNAL matures, the current workaround key sequences will be removed and the dedicated keys will be introduced. So F4 will serve another purpose, and Control-C will stop acting as the break key.

Bear in mind, however, that the three keys used for RESTORE, 40/80, and RUN/STOP are special keys on PCs and not included on all keyboards any more. RESTORE is the Print Screen key, 40/80 is Scroll Lock, and Run/Stop is actually the Break key on a PC keyboard. So if the emulator switches to using those keys (rather than the current stopgap functions), some users may not be able to access them. 

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$195 is not too high a price to pay considering what people pay for mech kbds these days.  I probably spent upwards of that for a keyboard project of my own across a few bespoke purchases; $65 to Mouser for misc. components and 75 Cherry Black (low budget, yes) switches, $28 for a keyboard PCB, $25 for low-budget keycaps from China, $87 for too-fancy key decals and now I have to make a case.

Will it be worth it?  Maybe.  Is this WASD worth it (to me).  Yup!  But I don't have the $$ at the moment either, so this will wait until my November discretionary funds roll in; until then, it's baked beans out of a can for lunch.

 

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And just for the record currently we have both reset and nmi pins on the motherboard and one button on the front of the case which you can choose to connect to either of those pins depending on your preferred option. And the power button separately of course.

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6 hours ago, EMwhite said:

$195 is not too high a price to pay considering what people pay for mech kbds these days.  I probably spent upwards of that for a keyboard project of my own across a few bespoke purchases; $65 to Mouser for misc. components and 75 Cherry Black (low budget, yes) switches, $28 for a keyboard PCB, $25 for low-budget keycaps from China, $87 for too-fancy key decals and now I have to make a case.

Will it be worth it?  Maybe.  Is this WASD worth it (to me).  Yup!  But I don't have the $$ at the moment either, so this will wait until my November discretionary funds roll in; until then, it's baked beans out of a can for lunch.

I've been making that same point, but when I went back and looked at mechanical keyboards the other day, I was seeing basic mechanical keyboard prices at around $50-100. 

A couple of years ago, $200 was the price for a quality keyboard, but with everyone and their brother getting into the game now, that price is definitely coming down.

If WASD can still sell keyboards at $200, then great for them, but I have a feeling they're going to have a hard time holding that price point for much longer.

 

Edited by TomXP411
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