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xanthrou

Commander X16 ports of existing games and software

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So, we've got Tetris, Invaderz and Brixx. 

How difficult would be porting from a 16-bit system to X16, say, like from MS-DOS of VGA era, Amiga and Sega Genesis? 

 

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That probably depends on the game genre. Platform / Jump&Run games like "Giana Sisters", "Prince of Persia" or even "Sonic the Hedgehog" etc should be quite in reach. I'm thinking about doing one of those next 🙂.

Also horizontal or vertical shooters should be fine, considering Vera's capabilities.

3D stuff like "Starglider" might be a challenge. But hey - Elite ran on the C64, so why not...

All of this limited to 320x240 pixel resolution. I think VGA res would be a real challenge. For "Brixx" I considered it, because it would have been feasible. But decided against it - 320x240 is more retro, it just feels right.

Edited by AndyMt
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I made a totally not optimized 3d line animation program demo that shows the Elite's Cobra Mk3 spinning....  Optimized line vector animation should allow for pretty nice framerates but I don't think filled 3d surfaces is realistic for general application... Even the Amiga struggled with that and it had a blitter chip

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48 minutes ago, AndyMt said:

That probably depends on the game genre. Platform / Jump&Run games like "Giana Sisters", "Prince of Persia" or even "Sonic the Hedgehog" etc should be quite in reach. I'm thinking about doing one of those next 🙂.

Also horizontal or vertical shooters should be fine, considering Vera's capabilities.

3D stuff like "Starglider" might be a challenge. But hey - Elite ran on the C64, so why not...

All of this limited to 320x240 pixel resolution. I think VGA res would be a real challenge. For "Brixx" I considered it, because it would have been feasible. But decided against it - 320x240 is more retro, it just feels right.

I would also guess that DOOM would be ported, consindering the meme and VERA capabilities. (especially the 128KB RAM and 256 colors).

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20 minutes ago, xanthrou said:

I would also guess that DOOM would be ported, consindering the meme and VERA capabilities.

I highly doubt that. It was tried for the C64 SuperCPU which runs at 20MHz and even that didn't achieve reasonable frame rates.

VERA doesn't help in this case, as the CPU needs to do all the work. And VRAM access is slightly slower with VERA, compared to directly memory mapped architectures like the C64.

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13 minutes ago, AndyMt said:

I highly doubt that. It was tried for the C64 SuperCPU which runs at 20MHz and even that didn't achieve reasonable frame rates.

VERA doesn't help in this case, as the CPU needs to do all the work. And VRAM access is slightly slower with VERA, compared to directly memory mapped architectures like the C64.

I am expecting if there is a playable "Doom Port", it will be more like an upgraded version of the VIV-20 " Doom port" than something that can actually execute a WAD ... IOW a port of a WAD rather than a port of an engine.

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4 hours ago, AndyMt said:

3D stuff like "Starglider" might be a challenge. But hey - Elite ran on the C64, so why not...

Because on a C64 you have direct read/write to the pixel data and on the X16 you don't.

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2 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

I am expecting if there is a playable "Doom Port", it will be more like an upgraded version of the VIV-20 " Doom port" than something that can actually execute a WAD ... IOW a port of a WAD rather than a port of an engine.

It's likely to be about the same. The processor might be quicker but the pipe to the graphics data is slower.

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1 hour ago, paulscottrobson said:

It's likely to be about the same. The processor might be quicker but the pipe to the graphics data is slower.

Not slower than updating graphics on the Vic-20.

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On 1/26/2021 at 6:44 AM, BruceMcF said:

I am expecting if there is a playable "Doom Port", it will be more like an upgraded version of the VIV-20 " Doom port" than something that can actually execute a WAD ... IOW a port of a WAD rather than a port of an engine.

The original Quake was 320x200 pixels.  I've been looking into the math behind representing the range [-1..1] as 1+7 bit numbers; it's a two's complement notation divided by 127.  So far using ~8kb of lookup tables I've got fixed-point multiplication, division, sin/cos/arcsin/arctan, and a very fast 1/sqrt(x^2+y^2+z^2) normalization function, just four lookups and two additions then three multiplications or divisions, faster than the normalization function Quake used, albeit 8 bit instead of floating point.  I'm giving serious thought to making an 8bit 3D game engine.

Edited by Ed Minchau
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1 hour ago, Ed Minchau said:

The original Quake was 320x200 pixels.  I've been looking into the math behind representing the range [-1..1] as 1+7 bit numbers; it's a two's complement notation divided by 127.  So far using ~8kb of lookup tables I've got fixed-point multiplication, division, sin/cos/arcsin/arctan, and a very fast 1/sqrt(x^2+y^2+z^2) normalization function, just four lookups and two additions then three multiplications or divisions, faster than the normalization function Quake used, albeit 8 bit instead of floating point.  I'm giving serious thought to making an 8bit 3D game engine.

Go for it, it would be very interesting to see what kind of performance you could get out of it.

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8 hours ago, Ed Minchau said:

I've been looking into the math behind representing the range [-1..1] as 1+7 bit numbers; it's a two's complement notation divided by 127.  So far using ~8kb of lookup tables I've got fixed-point multiplication, division, sin/cos/arcsin/arctan, and a very fast 1/sqrt(x^2+y^2+z^2) normalization function, just four lookups and two additions then three multiplications or divisions, faster than the normalization function Quake used, albeit 8 bit instead of floating point.  I'm giving serious thought to making an 8bit 3D game engine.

What resolution of multiplication are you doing?

One level of 3d-ish game that is interesting is Castle Wolfenstein, with vertical scaling, given the ease of writing columns of graphical data to Vera.

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On 1/26/2021 at 2:11 PM, AndyMt said:

That probably depends on the game genre. Platform / Jump&Run games like "Giana Sisters", "Prince of Persia" or even "Sonic the Hedgehog" etc should be quite in reach. I'm thinking about doing one of those next 🙂.

Also horizontal or vertical shooters should be fine, considering Vera's capabilities.

3D stuff like "Starglider" might be a challenge. But hey - Elite ran on the C64, so why not...

All of this limited to 320x240 pixel resolution. I think VGA res would be a real challenge. For "Brixx" I considered it, because it would have been feasible. But decided against it - 320x240 is more retro, it just feels right.

What about fighting games, like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, MUGEN, SNK vs Capcom, The King Of Fighters, et cetera?

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3 minutes ago, xanthrou said:

What about fighting games, like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, MUGEN, SNK vs Capcom, The King Of Fighters, et cetera?

Should be fine, as the limiting factor on such games is the large sprites and backgrounds these games usually have. The problem with such games though has always been getting the skill right.

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On 1/26/2021 at 3:44 PM, BruceMcF said:

I am expecting if there is a playable "Doom Port", it will be more like an upgraded version of the VIV-20 " Doom port" than something that can actually execute a WAD ... IOW a port of a WAD rather than a port of an engine.

In theory, you could make an expansion port (the problem is that it would render the game unplayable once the second phase took off), kinda similar to 32X, but better, to make DOOM work.

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7 hours ago, xanthrou said:

In theory, you could make an expansion port (the problem is that it would render the game unplayable once the second phase took off), kinda similar to 32X, but better, to make DOOM work.

An expansion card? Phase 2 seems like it would have at least one expansion card ... one aspect of the design of the fully decoded card selects is it allows a single cartridge slot with a riser board for those who want more slots.

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On 1/26/2021 at 2:11 PM, AndyMt said:

That probably depends on the game genre. Platform / Jump&Run games like "Giana Sisters", "Prince of Persia" or even "Sonic the Hedgehog" etc should be quite in reach. I'm thinking about doing one of those next 🙂.

 

Just in case I made an unofficial box art, for a game or software ported to X16. How's it?

commander x16 box art.PNG

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On 1/27/2021 at 10:19 PM, BruceMcF said:

What resolution of multiplication are you doing?

One level of 3d-ish game that is interesting is Castle Wolfenstein, with vertical scaling, given the ease of writing columns of graphical data to Vera.

The numbers I'm using to represent the range [-1..1] are the range -127 to 127.  So, the minimum resolution is 1/254 of that range or values as small as +/- 1/127.  Most of the results of the multiplication function are accurate to within +/- 1/2 bit, and all but 4 of the results are within 1 bit of what they should be.  The division function is even more accurate, if the absolute value of the numerator is less than the absolute value of the denominator, all results are within +/- 1 bit.

I'm going to start by shooting for the moon and then scaling back until I get something workable.  If I can get a 3D engine that works at 160x120 with more than two colors I'll be happy. 

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I have a wild, wacky suggestion.

While I do approve whole heartedly of the porting of classic arcade, console, and computer franchises like GradiusR-TypeBubble BobbleMule, and early SCUMM Engine LucasArts games, why not also have someone contact the likes of Starsoft, Yacht Club Games, and Humble Games to port modern retro "Pixel Art" games, like Shovel KnightThe Messenger (2018), Cyber ShadowSaviorAxion Verge and the like?  I am trying to imagine The Messenger with SID-like PSG sound exclusively for the Past and PCM and YM2151 audio added for the Future!.

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7 hours ago, Kalvan said:

I have a wild, wacky suggestion.

While I do approve whole heartedly of the porting of classic arcade, console, and computer franchises like GradiusR-TypeBubble BobbleMule, and early SCUMM Engine LucasArts games, why not also have someone contact the likes of Starsoft, Yacht Club Games, and Humble Games to port modern retro "Pixel Art" games, like Shovel KnightThe Messenger (2018), Cyber ShadowSaviorAxion Verge and the like?  I am trying to imagine The Messenger with SID-like PSG sound exclusively for the Past and PCM and YM2151 audio added for the Future!.

And KAMIKO as well.

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Oh man, it would be amazing to have SCUMM running on the Cx16 .  I was hooked when I discovered Maniac Mansion for the C64 as a kid.  And things only got worse with the Monkey Island series  🙂 .

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11 hours ago, OguzhanKuyubasi said:

What about a Street Fighter II Port for the Commander X16?

 paulscottrobson  already replied that it would be a bit difficult, but doable.

Edited by xanthrou

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17 hours ago, xanthrou said:

 paulscottrobson  already replied that it would be a bit difficult, but doable.

I made a Ryu Sprite with the Sprite Editor from @CX16UserSteveC what is available here.

Take a look of the Sprite.

1334591250_X16RyuSpriteinSpriteEditor.png.1119c91d6d14018ba84334489380f261.png

And that's the Original PNG file.

601196558_RyuSprite1.png.0976e9da269f93a252a9672460985c0c.png

I think I set the Color Palette a little bit wrong.

And I found out that the Emulator works on Windows XP.

Edited by OguzhanKuyubasi
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